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06-07-2024, 09:26 PM
Xuled
No real substantial changes as usual and yet people will lap it up. Terrible
06-07-2024, 09:39 PM
sindriiisgaming
well why not just leave then in protest, i mean your the guy who in a different thread wanted all the "casuals and Fragile people" to leave the game. why should they. your the one whos unhappy... lol. why is it not okay the game caters to them, but when u want it to cater to you instead of them suddenly thats completely fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlanderClone
>Just wait until skill showcase, it's not going to be that bad
>Just wait until live letter explanation, it's not going to be that bad
>Just wait until tooltips release, it's not going to be that bad
>Just wait until early access, it's not going to be that bad [YOU ARE HERE]
>Just wait until savage balance patch, it's not going to be that bad
>Just wait until next expansion's skill showcase, it's surely going to be better
>Repeat from start
06-07-2024, 09:53 PM
Supersnow845
Because if jobs had low floors and high ceilings with different jobs offering slightly different levels of both you could literally appeal to everyone. The problem of modern jobs and modern design is coming from the fact that none of the jobs seem to be allowed to have any sort of optimisation or skill ceiling. Being forced into incredibly rigid jobs and massive dilution of the trinity in content that’s designed for casuals (not a bad thing necessarily to be designed for casual) gets incredibly stale really quickly and the DT changes aren’t helpingQuote:
Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming
well why not just leave then in protest, i mean your the guy who in a different thread wanted all the "casuals and Fragile people" to leave the game. why should they. your the one whos unhappy... lol. why is it not okay the game caters to them, but when u want it to cater to you instead of them suddenly thats completely fine.
06-07-2024, 10:00 PM
Somnolence
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuled
No real substantial changes as usual and yet people will lap it up. Terrible
BLM was changed a bit and look at the reaction.06-07-2024, 10:01 PM
Aravell
This is a very important point to emphasise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Being forced into incredibly rigid jobs and massive dilution of the trinity in content that’s designed for casuals (not a bad thing necessarily to be designed for casual) gets incredibly stale really quickly and the DT changes aren’t helping
Designing jobs for casuals isn't a bad thing.
But catering jobs to casuals is a bad thing.Designing jobs so casuals can play them is fine, because that means the job is accessible and anyone can pick it up and play it decently enough.
Where the problem comes in is when they cater the job designs to the casual player. If they do this, it's no longer related to accessibility, it just becomes melding the skill ceiling into the skill floor so anyone can pick up any job and be perfect at it within an hour. This is not good design because you're alienating the chunk of players who want to work towards mastery and not have it handed to them.
If Yoshi P truly wants FFXIV to be an MMO for everyone, he should take both sides into consideration and not just make every job extremely easy and then segregate people into different content depending on skill level.
06-07-2024, 10:29 PM
MagiusNecros
Doubling down on the 2 minute meta was critical error in judgment methinks.
06-07-2024, 10:31 PM
Immut
No why would we do that? That's kind of the whole point here, they're continuing the bad job design that started in shadowbringers, continued through endwalker, and now is even worse in dawntrailQuote:
Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming
are we going to pretend endwalker didnt do this either?
06-07-2024, 10:33 PM
Oizen
Its basically Shadowbringers 3.
I don't think the game has the budget to do anything other than follow set formulas, especially with SE pissing away all their money on flop after flop
06-07-2024, 10:34 PM
Moqi
Already have. Jobs are still terrible though.Quote:
Originally Posted by localareanetwork
Just unsub then?
06-07-2024, 11:06 PM
rawker
I don't even think they can deliver in 8.0 with this job identities they're brewing when they've dug themselves a pit so deep that it's too late for them to reach the veterans and tick the casuals they pandered to.
I'm not gonna be surprised if they'll introduce auto-battle in 8.0 because even logging in the game induces stress
06-07-2024, 11:10 PM
Immut
Don't worry they have a thriving mobile division to...oh wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
Its basically Shadowbringers 3.
I don't think the game has the budget to do anything other than follow set formulas, especially with SE pissing away all their money on flop after flop
06-07-2024, 11:24 PM
AmiableApkallu
I don't think that jobs must change in a meaningful way every expansion. I would be okay if it was declared, "This job is more or less complete now, so it'll be incremental changes from here on out."Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
A button that follows your two minute burst whether fused on not is hilariously uninspired and does nothing to change any of the jobs in any meaningful way and they gave it to like 15 out of the 20 classes
The problem is when those incremental changes are to a design that needs more work put into its foundation
*cough*healers*cough*.06-07-2024, 11:26 PM
Absurdity
Damn, my DrK rotation is in shambles.Quote:
Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei
Hi, this is actually an Enhanced Unmend nerf, since you can't even theoretically get increased Plunges as damage tools anymore after you meet DPS thresholds in phasing.
https://i.imgur.com/kW12OKC.jpegIt's also a problem when those same stale foundations have basically not changed in the last 2 expansions.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu
I don't think that jobs must change in a meaningful way every expansion. I would be okay if it was declared, "This job is more or less complete now, so it'll be incremental changes from here on out."
The problem is when those incremental changes are to a design that needs more work put into its foundation
*cough*healers*cough*.
06-07-2024, 11:26 PM
GrizzlyTank
Again a sigh.
Targeted movement skills without damage makes then generally feel less engaging to use. Shoulder tackle felt fun since when you landed it left a clear visual and audible thud. DRK plunge as well... But not, these are removed due to reasons.
06-07-2024, 11:36 PM
Sensui
I think the topic is really funny considering the propensity for players to almost always follow the current META even given the opportunity for alt builds or play styles. C'mon sheeple, let's be real here.
06-07-2024, 11:42 PM
Malthir
The reason is, players aren't allowed to have fun. The devs only listen to the yes men streamers they tote around at media tours. Remember scourge on Drk's it was a sick animation that Drk players loved, not anymore, yeetus deletus say the devs. Remember powerslash, sick looking weaponskill, no instead the devs deleted is so our weaponskill combo ends with us doing a goofy jump in the air, Souleater sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank
Again a sigh.
Targeted movement skills without damage makes then generally feel less engaging to use. Shoulder tackle felt fun since when you landed it left a clear visual and audible thud. DRK plunge as well... But not, these are removed due to reasons.
06-07-2024, 11:47 PM
AmiableApkallu
I'm looking at PLD and the change to make Goring Blade usable only under Fight of Flight, and I'm thinking, "Why? Just, why?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensui
I think the topic is really funny considering the propensity for players to almost always follow the current META even given the opportunity for alt builds or play styles. C'mon sheeple, let's be real here.
On the one hand, yes, that's what I do 99% of the time anyway.
On the other hand, why must the game shoehorn me into playing that way? At a glance
(I admit to not having looked at every change closely), many changes across the jobs seem aimed at ensuring that players play a job in one particular way, and only that particular way.To which I say: It's one thing if the players want to optimize the fun out of something. It's quite another for the game to do it for them.
06-07-2024, 11:50 PM
Quabble
Absolutely sick at what they did to EW monk. When the LL came out and it was announced the buff and dot management would be gone I should of been more prepared, but I remained optimistic. But there will be no thinking going into 2m bursts now, and what's the point of the job gauge if you're going to only have the "correct" gcd per form light up? All thought was removed to gain a gcd to hit for free during your burst for 1300 potency. Also the new bootshine, truestrike, and snap punch gcd icons are jarring, the old ones matched the alternate gcd for its for form and (imo) just looked better.
06-08-2024, 01:14 AM
Kisshu
WAR design is more or less: We heard you liked having a finisher on your 1-min, so we put a finisher on your finisher, and also a finisher on your 3-stack fell cleaves.
The jobs are being pushed more and more to deliver all the damage in 20 sec bursts phases. Nearly all the burst buffs (personal and party) are on a 20 sec duration with a few on 30 sec. So for most jobs it's burst for 20 sec, then basic rotations for 40 sec if you have a 1-min mini burst, else wait 1:40 sec.
It's also telling that now all jobs get their strongest burst right at the start of combat, even DRG and SMN.
06-08-2024, 03:26 AM
Doublejho
beat me to itQuote:
Originally Posted by HighlanderClone
7.0 BLM in a nutshell
06-08-2024, 03:31 AM
Doublejho
BLM actually lost this expansion, quite hard actually - the new core ability is a tumour that hampers rotation flexibility and has the audacity to be only slightly better than our current rotation ender, whilst last expansion's capstone is now being made worse tooQuote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
It doesn't change the fact that these abilities are boring and just things you're gonna be hitting on CD with very few exceptions.
The jobs need more core abilities that are being used in the filler rotation, but only BLM and SGE actually got those as far as I noticed.
06-08-2024, 04:01 AM
OgruMogru
Not to mention a now extremely immobile ice phase that is now mandatory to do spells in to recoup mana. How does this help low skilled players? Likewise the removal of UI paradox. Gimped mana recovery for who? Who does this help? It sucks for nonstandard and low level play. While I'm ranting, if manafont is gonna give me so much in 1 ability then I want the HP cost to come back >:CQuote:
Originally Posted by Doublejho
BLM actually lost this expansion, quite hard actually - the new core ability is a tumour that hampers rotation flexibility and has the audacity to be only slightly better than our current rotation ender, whilst last expansion's capstone is now being made worse too
06-08-2024, 04:04 AM
Doublejho
i mean, the implications of the changes are a lot, it'll be worse for advanced players, more unforgiving for casual players, horrific for the people levelling it anew, and a significant part of the job's free-spirited rotation is now railroaded, but we could rant about it all day, my point specifically was that BLM's better off without its new core abilityQuote:
Originally Posted by OgruMogru
Not to mention a now extremely immobile ice phase that is now mandatory to do spells in to recoup mana. How does this help low skilled players? Likewise the removal of UI paradox. Gimped mana recovery for who? Who does this help? It sucks for nonstandard and low level play. While I'm ranting, if manafont is gonna give me so much in 1 ability then I want the HP cost to come back >:C
06-08-2024, 04:06 AM
OgruMogru
agreed and it's a real shame because I was hoping to feel optimistic for at least a little bit more than like...5 minutes :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublejho
i mean, the implications of the changes are a lot, it'll be worse for advanced players, more unforgiving for casual players, horrific for the people levelling it anew, and a significant part of the job's free-spirited rotation is now railroaded, but we could rant about it all day, my point specifically was that BLM's better off without its new core ability
06-08-2024, 04:30 AM
LilimoLimomo
I think there's certainly valid criticism to be had here, but I think it's worth pointing out that this is basically what many classes were already doing before Dawntrail, just with 2 buttons instead of 1 button. Because yeah, if you've got damaging cooldowns, you're going to use them during your buffed phase; this just cuts out the middle-man.Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlanderClone
Use your 2-min, then click on the same button again for 600 POTENCY!
06-08-2024, 08:00 AM
AnimalsALot
Be grateful that SQUARE ENIX CO. is prepping us for the eventual destination of humanity where we just turn off our brains and let the machines do the thinking for us. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Quabble
But there will be no thinking going into 2m bursts now, and what's the point of the job gauge if you're going to only have the "correct" gcd per form light up?
06-08-2024, 08:34 AM
KageTokage
I didn't notice it has a cast time for some awkward reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublejho
BLM actually lost this expansion, quite hard actually - the new core ability is a tumour that hampers rotation flexibility and has the audacity to be only slightly better than our current rotation ender, whilst last expansion's capstone is now being made worse too
If it was instant, then yeah, it might've been a decent addition but it does just seem kind of clunky in its current state.
06-08-2024, 12:26 PM
vetch
Maybe it's what you do 99% of time in raids, but it's pure ass for dungeon gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu
I'm looking at PLD and the change to make Goring Blade usable only under Fight of Flight, and I'm thinking, "Why? Just, why?"
On the one hand, yes, that's what I do 99% of the time anyway.
On the other hand, why must the game shoehorn me into playing that way? At a glance
(I admit to not having looked at every change closely), many changes across the jobs seem aimed at ensuring that players play a job in one particular way, and only that particular way.
To which I say: It's one thing if the players want to optimize the fun out of something. It's quite another for the game to do it for them.
I couldn't hope to count the number of times I've done a big pull and popped FoF for the AoE spam, then used Boring Blade to kill the last mob even though FoF already ended because screw it, it'll be up again by the time we get to the the boss. Now I just... don't get to use my big hit button unless I want to drop a higher-total-potency AoE GCD for it? Are you kidding me?
Yet another job action gets raid-poisoned.
06-08-2024, 12:35 PM
Sensui
Because all your other abilities are gonna be unusable on that last trash mob i guess.. Holy sh*t you guys nit pick every possible insignificant scenario and claim it's the end of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by vetch
Maybe it's what you do 99% of time in raids, but it's pure ass for dungeon gameplay.
I couldn't hope to count the number of times I've done a big pull and popped FoF for the AoE spam, then used Boring Blade to kill the last mob even though FoF already ended because screw it, it'll be up again by the time we get to the the boss. Now I just... don't get to use my big hit button unless I want to drop a higher-total-potency AoE GCD for it? Are you kidding me?
Yet another job action gets raid-poisoned.
06-08-2024, 12:47 PM
AnnRam
That surely will help dealing with people anxiety (which 95% of the player base suffer) good job Square always taking care of their loyal costumers!
06-08-2024, 01:23 PM
vetch
Have you heard of level syncing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensui
Because all your other abilities are gonna be unusable on that last trash mob i guess.. Holy sh*t you guys nit pick every possible insignificant scenario and claim it's the end of the world.
Sometimes (and I'm being coy here, it's more than half of the time) roulettes will drop you into content where, yes, you literally cannot use your high-level abilities.
Do you reckon people should only have buttons to press in Expert Roulette?
06-09-2024, 04:01 AM
HighlanderClone
SE wants to turn us all into raid rotation bots :oQuote:
Originally Posted by vetch
Maybe it's what you do 99% of time in raids, but it's pure ass for dungeon gameplay.
I couldn't hope to count the number of times I've done a big pull and popped FoF for the AoE spam, then used Boring Blade to kill the last mob even though FoF already ended because screw it, it'll be up again by the time we get to the the boss. Now I just... don't get to use my big hit button unless I want to drop a higher-total-potency AoE GCD for it? Are you kidding me?
Yet another job action gets raid-poisoned.
06-09-2024, 10:56 PM
Doublejho
clunky? its sole purpose is to force the standard rotation, it couldn't have been implemented in a more intrusive wayQuote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
I didn't notice it has a cast time for some awkward reason.
If it was instant, then yeah, it might've been a decent addition but it does just seem kind of clunky in its current state.
06-10-2024, 12:43 AM
rawker
If the game will evolve to very strict rotations, without any deviation or variation, then I will not be surprised if auto battle is the next logical step for them to implement.
06-10-2024, 12:57 AM
Rekh
Elden Ring and ffxiv couldn't have clashed at a better time HAHA. Polar opposite game design; most of us will blaze through dawntrail msq and return to the lands between ASAP; xiv will be a desert outside of aether data center within the first week.
Yeah, this will eventually be a "single player" option, probably for 8.0, it's square enix's approach for the last 6 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by rawker
If the game will evolve to very strict rotations, without any deviation or variation, then I will not be surprised if auto battle is the next logical step for them to implement.
06-10-2024, 04:10 AM
Bondee
Local citizen discovers their house is on fire 6 years after ignition, more at 11
06-10-2024, 04:29 AM
StrangeIove
I think one of the main things that SE should be looking at it how some skills are distributed through the levels, especially skills like Umbral Soul on BLM and Dark Missionary on DRK.
06-10-2024, 04:43 AM
SciWiz
Throwing my pitch into the pot, this stuff sucks and all feels like Square is trying to appeal to the quite literal lowest common denominator. All the changes I looked at could easily be summarized as "No one wanted this". Why did Monk get completely changed? Why does every Tank have a Fell Cleave now? Who wanted all OGCD Buffs to have Attacks after them (Not me! I hate it when my Searing gets overwrote!). But then stuff like Bard and Samurai still have button bloat out the wazoo, why do they have separate AoE/Single Targets? Like you made Shoha into 1 button now do it for the 25 Meter Dump and etc (and also No Kaiten still, despite *that* being what a majority of People Who Actually Play SAM Want). Not to mention all the complains that Healers have, and as shown earlier in this thread Good Ol Enhanced Unmend, I genuinely wonder if there even *is* a design philosophy/end goal of all these seemingly arbitrary choices made with no feedback.
You know what people like about Dragoon? The strict never-ending combo, Fang & Claw <-> Wheeling Thrust, the excessive weaving. What're they removing from Dragoon? Fang & Claw <-> Wheeling Thrust. Oh but the AoEs that no one liked are staying, and completely unchanged. Let's make Blood Weapon and Delirium be on the same button! Oh and let's also nerf Blood Weapon to have 3 charges for some reason. DRK having Pre-Pull Blood Wep and then using Delirium early but not actually spending it till like 4 GCDs in is something Unique about it, and now that's gone. My mind is completely abuzz and absolutely boggled with so many of these changes I don't even think I can begin to type this in a coherent manner.
Like instead of forcing all this rubbish after buffs (which makes it EVEN stricter, because now buffs will get overwritten just to get that 600 potency OGCD within the window), maybe like, completely rework the Sprout/Mentor/Newbie Hall stuff? Actively change it with information from the community at the top level of these jobs? Y'know like, Actually Teach People To Play????
06-10-2024, 06:00 AM
seolhyun
jobs are starting to play themselves. first they made all the cooldowns 1 or 2 minutes so they always sync up, no need to think. now they add new abilities that you can only use after your cooldown, no need to think. even viper turned out just to be "press the shiny button so your buffs refresh" dont worry about what the combos do.
06-10-2024, 07:10 AM
HighlanderClone
To be fair I'm not asking for change, I'm long past that, I'm laughing at the state of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondee
Local citizen discovers their house is on fire 6 years after ignition, more at 11
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